McNamara’s Evil Lives On

Like Thompson used to say about Nixon in response to “speak no ill of the dead” – “I kicked him when he was up, I’ll kick him when he is down.”

Hate is something I try to stay away from, but I never liked McNamara. When I think of the word douche I think McNamara. I didn’t even like him when I was a young kid and kinda liked American militarism. It just always seemed like Harvard made his brain stop working. And then he turned evil. He thought bombing would make him a hero. He thought it would bring him true fame. It did.

He bombed in 1966. 20 years after a serious debate on whether it was a war crime had started. He knew what he was doing. Unlike those at Nuremburg, he had no excuses.  He was Harvard educated.

McNamara’s Evil Lives On

Why not speak ill of the dead?

Robert McNamara, who died this week, was a complex man–charming even, in a blustery way, and someone I found quite thoughtful when I interviewed him. In the third act of his life he was often an advocate for enlightened positions on world poverty and the dangers of the nuclear arms race. But whatever his better nature, it was the stark evil he perpetrated as secretary of defense that must indelibly frame our memory of him.

To not speak out fully because of respect for the deceased would be to mock the memory of the millions of innocent people McNamara caused to be maimed and killed in a war that he later freely admitted never made any sense. Much has been made of the fact that he recanted his support for the war, but that came 20 years after the holocaust he visited upon Vietnam was over.


the original post (not a long one).

Rot in Hell, You Fucking Piece of Shit. Two Million Vietnamese Want To Thank You.



…originally posted the minute the Motherfucker died. I don’t care. I won’t be remembering the date.

150 Replies to “McNamara’s Evil Lives On”

  1. Sorry, that’s not “fucking piece of shit”, it should be more like “smarmy, self-righteous, PAINFULLY DENSE fucking piece of shit”.

  2. I just wish it could have happened earlier, like about 45 years ago*, maybe being run over by a new Ford Falcon or something. At least Dean Rusk and LBJ** had the courtesy to bow out early.

    * Same goes for MJ.

    **”I listened to the wrong advisors”. Gee, I wonder who they were?

  3. Robert McNamara was unjustly demonized IMO. He was only doing his job and looking out for his country. He helped bring an early end to the Vietnamese War. You should go brush up on your history just a little. Too many people make it their effort in life to vilify our nation’s heroes, perhaps because they are too cowardly themselves. Take a look in the mirror. Is that you?

  4. Now now my troubled little soul, does that really matter? By the looks of your text I have the sneaking suspicion you weren’t. Have a good day kicking through the sour patch or whatever you do.

  5. I saw it all and I know you, my furry friend, are (a) blowing smoke and (b) are very likely too young and ignorant to know what you are talking aboot. You sound like a troll. Gday.

  6. Ah, so I presume you were right there in the trenches duking it out. Were you there when the napalm fell, too? And when the decisions were being made behind closed doors in the White House? Were you THAT fly on the wall? You strike me as mildly intelligent, enough so anyway to try to explain to me what it matters who or where you were, considering it was probably not of much significance at all, and also how you have derived your wacky conclusions.

  7. eh, ya can’t fight a guerrila war off your home turf. scorted earth is the only method. that woulda been stupid too though, those vietnamese women are just too cute.

  8. not that there was any good reason for the vietnam war; except to show who’s boss. but i guess that’s always been reason enough, i guess.

  9. can’t much argue with that wo fat, as long as there’s some asian women out there doing the hard labor. i hate blisters, and callouses too for that matter.

  10. “not that there was any good reason for the vietnam war….” –dave

    Hell in a Very Small Place, by Bernard B. Fall (1967)

    Bernard B. Fall wrote a tremendous history that will be mined by scholars for years to come regarding the final battle of the First Indochina War at Dien Bien Phu. The story is shot through with irony, not the least of which is Fall’s own demise in Vietnam on the eve of the publication of this volume in 1967. But first a little background on the general situation:

    Following the tragedy and devastation of WWII, the French assumed it was business as usual and moved back into their former colonial possessions in Southeast Asia. What we know today as Vietnam was then known as French Indochina, formed of the countries known as Tonkin, Annam, Cochin China, Cambodia, and Laos. The returning French were met by the Viet Minh, an indigenous resistance group that had actually fought on the allied side against the Japanese.

    Now, the French were opposed by the Viet Minh, led by Ho Chi Minh, who, as luck would have it, was French-educated and a communist. Ho declared independence in 1945 but was quickly put down by a combined force of British, Indian, and French troops. When the allied troops withdrew, the French found they had a tiger by the tail and, due to quite a few circumstances back home, had little in the way of resources to commit to pacifying their erstwhile possession. The war went on for eight years, with the French trying without success to draw the Viet Minh into a pitched battle where they could be destroyed once and for all. Finally, they got their battle, but the outcome was not what they expected.

    Desperate for a decisive battle that would create conditions that would lead to an “honorable political solution,” the French under High Commissioner General Henri Navarre gambled by establishing a base in a valley 175 miles from its nearest support. The only way in was by air. The name of the nearby town was “Seat of the Border County Prefecture,” or Dien Bien Phu. It was late 1953.

    Coincidentally, the Korean War had come to its indecisive conclusion and the Red Chinese began transferring the tons of American weapons abandoned there to their allies the Viet Minh. The Viet Minh began packing in the materiel, including artillery, across the trackless interior of Vietnam into the hills surrounding the valley. The French, meanwhile, had been inserting troops into the fortress at Dien Bien Phu until they had some 13,000 there. By March of 1954 the Vietminh had about 55,000 combat troops surrounding the French stronghold. Author Fall painstakingly explains the moves made by both sides, with the French strongpoints named after women and under command of Colonel de Castries, while the Viet Minh were under command of General Vo Nguyen Giap.

    On March 13, the Viet Minh pounded the French with their artillery, reducing a couple of the French strongpoints, while the French artillery commander committed suicide since he couldn‘t hit the Viet Minh artillery positions because of their excellent camouflage. The French, under General Marcel Bigeard, began parachuting in reinforcements but were met with antiaircraft fire so the dwindling number of defenders was not able to be augmented much. Much of the airdropped supplies that were not shot up fell in the Viet Minh controlled areas, thereby increasing their strength as much as it depleted the strength of the French.

    Fall covers the various tactics and gambits played out by both forces. Much of the material is surprising, like the fact that 70% of the French troops were not French; they were Algerian, African, Vietnamese, Foreign Legionnaires, and so on. The Viet Minh, abandoning their frontal assault tactics dug trenches toward the French positions until they could overrun them. The fall of the fortress took place on May 8, 1954, with over 11,000 French troops captured. And with it fell French colonial pretensions forever.

    Fall gives tons of data covering all aspects of the build up and the siege. Maps indicate the tactical situation and photographs illustrate the key players and terrain of the battle.

    I found Fall’s writing style to be straightforward but it was a little hard going because there was so much detail and so many players to keep straight. I think the book will appeal to history buffs and will probably form the basis for future accounts as it is the only major volume produced thus far on the Battle of Dien Bien Phu.

    For more reading on Vietnam history I recommend Fall’s excellent Street Without Joy, covering the entire 8-year period of the French Indochina War.
    –George Chabot (on Amazon)

  11. Bernard Fall was a graduate of one of my alma mater’s and I read his book for that reason in the early ’70s. Not having a clue about Viet Nam (when I went off to college in the late ’60s, I thought Viet Nam was somewhere off the coast of Spain), it seemed like a good place to start and it was.

    Comments on above review of Fall’s book… read from bottom, up.

    Comment Sorted by
    Date Written
    Re: George (Reply to this comment)
    by George_Chabot, George_Chabot is an Advisor on Epinions in Books
    Thanks for straightening out the timeline. I got a little out of sync, I guess.

    Your bud

    Mar 15 ’06
    3:41 am PST
    Re: RE: Indo-China (Reply to this comment)
    by George_Chabot, George_Chabot is an Advisor on Epinions in Books
    Thanks for clarifying that, Paul!

    Mar 15 ’06
    3:39 am PST
    George (Reply to this comment)
    by colonialpara
    The Fall of Dien Bien Phu was the straw that broke the camel’s back for France in Indo-China, but it was NOT the final battle of their war there.

    Do not forget the destruction of Groupe Mobile 100 (G.M. 100) along Route Coloniale 41 in the Mang Yang pass between An Khe and Pleiku by the same Viet Minh unit (later NVA) that would take on Hal Moore’s 1st Bn., 7th Cavalry in the Ia Drang valley in 1965.

    The death of GM 100 came weeks after DBP fell, but before the cease fire of 22 July 1954 that effectively divided the country at the 17th parallel.

    Finally, the last French Union troops, ironically a Foreign Legion unit did not leave Indo-China until 1956. When France arrived for the first time in the 1850s, some of the first troops ashore were with the Legion (as well as colonial infantry). I think it quite fitting that it was Legionnaires who hauled down the Tri-Color for the last time from their final posting in Saigon in 1956.

    Paul Mar 14 ’06
    11:18 am PST
    RE: Indo-China (Reply to this comment)
    by colonialpara

    What you are referring to is the inability of the French government, specifically the Minister of Defense to commit French conscripts OUTSIDE metropolitan France without their consent.

    Consequently, the French Army had to rely on the professionals assigned to Colonial Parachute, Infantry and Artillery regiments, the Foreign Legion (which even then was probably 35% French), levies from other French colonies such as Algeria, Morocco, Senegal, Tunisia, etc. and the native Vietnamese and tribal auxiliaries like the Red, White and Black T’ai, the Meos, Rhade and Bru.

    Where France did a better job than we did during our war was in integrating their forces on a grand scale. Fall discusses this in SWJ and HIAVSP when he mentions the ethnic composition of such units as the 6eme BPC (6th Colonial Para. Bn.), commanded by the mythic Major Marcel Bigeard.

    HIAVSP is without a doubt the BEST book on Dien Bien Phu ever written and it is really a tragedy that Fall had to die on Hwy 1, the old STREET WITHOUT JOY in 1967 while on patrol with US Marines.

    It would have been interesting to see what other works he would have produced had he lived.

    If you can find it, try to get a copy of his last work: LAST REFFLECTIONS ON A WAR, published by his American wife Dorothy, after his death.

    Vive la Legion!


    Mar 14 ’06
    11:11 am PST
    Re: Vietnam… (Reply to this comment)
    by George_Chabot, George_Chabot is an Advisor on Epinions in Books
    You bet, Quinn. As a fellow history buff, I’m sure you’ll get a lot out of it. The French had a political system where the president couldn’t commit troops, the need to occupy the French sector of Germany, and other detriments. During the 50s, the major threat was the Russians and the NATO allies were concerned with Korea, etc. Vietnam was seen as the next domino to fall to Communism. Those are a few of the reasons the US got into it.

    Feb 12 ’06
    3:14 pm PST
    Vietnam… (Reply to this comment)
    by JediKermit
    I’ll have to check out “Street Without Joy”…I’ve been getting more into Vietnam studies over the last year or so, but most of that (okay, all of that) has been about the US War…which is kind of like studying WWII without knowing anything about WWI. Sounds like a solid book–thanks for the tip!


  12. Holmes-

    “Hell in a Very Small Place” was a pretty amazing book, also. I don’t think anyone has come close to matching it in 42 years.

  13. @EE-

    Hey! Bernard Fall.

    I actually saw a copy of his book in Borders last week. I should have bought it…I will buy it next time I’m there. Probably tomorrow.

    The only reason I haven’t read it is because I just read “The Last Valley” about Dien Bien Phu. Excellent Book. The author, Martin Windrow, clearly sets Fall as “the guy” on the subject. I haven’t read Fall, so I can’t say, but I think Windrow’s intention was to pay tribute by both updating and enhancing the story.

    Regardless. “Hell in a Very Small Place” has to rank as a pretty cool title for us human types.

    @ (at) Graig F. –

    I’m the absentee owner, operator of this site. Come back anytime. Don’t mind the natives.

    You could be Bunn Bunn, for all I know, so I’m careful. But even Bunn would never choose a moniker like “Craig F.”

    McNamara sucked. Watch “the Fog of War” a few more times. Then try reading some history. Thanks. I just did like before he died. In addition to watching the excellent documentary “Vietnam:The Ten Thousand Day War” twice a year, I also like Stanley Karnow’s classic. Dispatches. Senator Webb’s first novel. If it’s good and it’s been written, I’ve read it.

    If you still think I don’t know what I’m talking about, you can reach me sometimes these days over at Abu Muqawama’s blog (linked at the left).

  14. JR,

    I write to you only to point out a certain latent hypocrisy, and you probably know what I am talking about, but if not oh well. Are you a straight shooter? I think that is the improper question.

    I sauntered over to that website and was not at all impressed. Should I have been? Do you really waste your time reading there? If you feel you are learning something about the “metrics” (pretentious word use there) used to measure the success of war, then good. Perhaps it adds to the knowledge base and resource pool of your website in some indirect manner.

    My apologies to Zulu, but he should not have called me an asshole or been so quick to have me banned (again ironic).

    P.S. How much do you pay your staff?

  15. First of all, Graig F, I only give a shit about my flock. Are you serious?

    You just happened “Here”?

    You are Doom trying to goof me again?

    My staff get paid all the same. they are good writers. So $20,000 a month plus expenses. I track web hits so people get bonuses. But they don’t amount to much. My best earner, Bunn, got 2 grand in February.

  16. Uuum? Who banned you, again?

    I’m Zulu. I’m usually working or passed out in a puddle of my own vomit.

  17. You all are killing me with these books. Definitely will pursue them. My offering to this would be “Fire in the Lake”, by Frances Fitzgerald. An excellent and somewhat forgotten book on the Vietnam war, I suppose because it was written way back in 1972. Still in print though.

    McNamara wasn’t evil, he was just an asshole. Brilliant but totally wrong for the job. Maybe this is what Eisenhower was warning us about in his farewell speach. Also, funny how guys like McNamara and Wolfowitz end up running the World Bank. WTF.

    “He helped bring an early end to the Vietnamese War.”

    Early to me is 1965, not 1975. I think Craig F is Ollie North’s sock puppet.

    Some feel sorry for McNamara. “He was doing his job” says Craig F, etc. I’m sure he thought so too. But when you are at the helm of the most powerful military in the world, failure is not an option. He failed. He was a failure and it eventually dawned on him. He made his movie as a plea for understanding and forgiveness. He came clean albeit self-servingly. Fuck that. OK, the Vietnam clustefuck was probably inevitable with or without him. But he was in charge, and he did a Rumsfeld. Everyone said he was a genius. He didn’t know he was an asshole, he just believed he was all smart and shit. His attempting to wage a war by substituting systems analysis for understanding of foreign policy or military know-how was just typical post-WWII American industrial hubris. Car company execs running the military. No wonder Eisenhower had nightmares. McNamara eventually came around but it was too late, he did a lousy job, and he didn’t end anything “early”. Kennedy brought him into government. Eisenhower brought in Rumsfeld. Manzarek brought in Jim Morrison, who introduced us to the lizzard king, and when he died, all he left us was alone and empty, wearing paisley and smoking seeds. Ammo clips.

  18. I’ve got “Fire in the Lake.” I’ve had it for years. 20 years ago when I bought it, people were saying it was “The” thing to read. It’s a weird one. I made it through 100 pages. They are still saying that. It’s good. Thanks, Bif.

    I’m heading down to the basement to dig it out.

  19. “McNamara wasn’t evil, he was just an asshole.”

    I agree and disagree. McNamara was evil without proper adult supervison. I honesty believe that. I’ve seen what a 2000 pound bomb does to forest. “long sticks” of them dropped on the Ho Chi Minh trail with no idea where the enemy is look cool. But the neighbors didn’t write, so they were never able to send their feelings.

  20. Doom, look at you! You’re a nervous wreck, looking over your shoulder and around every corner invariably expecting to see rabbit ears. Ha ha! Nahhh… I have too much fun busting on you (but only when the mood is right) to hide behind a sock puppet and not get the credit. Uhhh, JR… your last check bounced.

    I never could get through Stanley Karnow’s “Vietnam”. I attribute it to getting too easily confused by gook names. Thank goodness for Apocalypse Now Redux, that’s all I have to say! Oh yeah, I’ll have to confer with Holmes on this, but I think McNamara started out as one of the “doves” back during the Cuban Missile Crisis. See, “One Minute to Midnight” by Dobbs.

  21. I know a killer rabbit when I see one. Why one of your cousins nearly assassinated President Carter in his boat on a lake! And he had the oars!

  22. JR, I have issues. Like, where’s my $20 grand mo’fucker?

    And, I don’t do sockpuppets.

    Go ahead, feed the troll.

  23. Hey, wake up and smell the coffee Saint Biff. Dave is probably the only one that believes McNamara to be the victim in the whole thing for being a poor dumb, naive human being who didn’t care much about the gooks. I just happen to feel he was a patriotic American doing his duty and he ought not get vilified JUST for napalming them and running them over with tanks.

    JR, you ought to find writers/contributors that will take LESS for kissing your ass (really, what “expenses” are involved with that anyway?).

    I’m going to subscribe to Guns and Ammo just to keep up with the lingo you have going on around here.

    Keep up the good work,
    Craig F.

  24. “kissing my Ass”?

    These people were hand picked because they showed verve is telling me I wa s either crazy or had cooties.

    I like you. Craig. You get membership.


    Bif is an editor. He can speak for himself. He’ll set you straight.
    Guns and Ammo has had problems for years. They need to cover light machine guns besides the MG42.

    They need to talk about the SAW and why it is not American manufactured.

  25. LOL, yes, what ass-kissers we are here. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard this year, even better than 8M calling me a rich slumlord in last week’s CFN commentary.

    The only (and to me the best) tribute I’ve read to McNamara’s “genius” was the mention of him in Bill Bonner’s book “Empire of Debt”. AFAIK, McNamara is the spiritual godfather of all the ‘tards in Washingtoon who feel we can “win the war on terror” if we just keep applying enough “resources” to the problem. This approach works well within certain limits and bounds, but when it becomes a leverage problem (ie, powerful first-world nation imposing its political will on a distant third-world nation that could have never made war on it in the first place – does this meme sound familiar to anyone?) over a great distance, sooner-or-later failure is the guaranteed result.

    Invading & occupying Afghanistan is to the impending death of an empire what jumping the shark is to the impending cancellation of a television series.

    One of the more realistic bumper stickers to comment on international politics reads something like: “Be nice to us or we’ll bring democracy to your nation next!” with a couple little UPL flags next to it of course.

  26. “JR, ban this a-hole.”

    Doom, I don’t do that. He’s an a-hole. I’m an a-hole.

    I’ll follow your orders once, one of these days, but only after I get to hang out with you in Hawaii for a week.

    Yeah, I know, I’m getting mushy in my old age. I’m turning 40 next month.

    My relatives keep dying of strokes.

    My will goes something like this (so far)…

    Listen to Yarra and Remus first. Then Holmes. Then Bif, then Doom.

    Then my Family. Brooke First. Then Lory. Then Aunt Martha. Then My Parents. Then Erik. Then Lyndsey (sorry kid, you were just the youngest, you get everything I own, including my thoughts).

    The Books go to Lyndsey if I wasn’t clear.

  27. “That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard this year”


    What did I miss? You know how much I love jokes.

  28. I need some more whiskey. I didn’t really like Michael jackson. I wish McNamara would go away. he had his 93 years.

    I like YOU PEOPLE. Can we talk about YOU? instead of these pricks?


  29. Nudge, well said.

    JR, at least I made the break in the pecking order before your family.

    You’d better get out here for a visit before TSHTF, bro. Bring Nudge.

  30. No, D3PO, you are the Judge. I can’t change. I like Lynyrnd Shynyrd. Nudge is compromised. She said she would have lunch with me next week.


    eh, it just seems to me that r mc was just one more asshole amongst many, including the losers who when to vietnam and did the dirty work. it’s just as stupid to vilifie him as it is to praise him as a “patriot” or whatever. victim? well, i certainly wouldn’t use that word. but if you insist, then yeah, we are victims of being human and living in a hierarchial system(which is simply a function of population density and somebody must assume the role of protecting the hiearchy) that had access to expanding amounts of available energy for the last 300 or so years, including r mc, sorry.

  32. if i ever saw r mc give a speech like palin did the other day, then i’d say he was fucking bat shit nuts, in the sense that such a speach would be real strong evidence that he was incapable of stringing together 2 logically(logic often depends on context) coherant thoughts; but i wouldn’t call him evil for it, nor would i call him a fucking patriot.

  33. whatever, Bunn just told me some shiz, I don;t care. I’m audi, dAWG.i DON’T CARE.anymore. Haha. Booya.

  34. JR, I live out in the the fricking asteroid belt, so let’s pick a day and I’ll just play hooky from work.

    Apologies in advance, but my sponsors insisted on having some sort of multimedia coverage of the meet.

    Doom, is OK, my sources tell me that Hawaii will be inhabited by humans for many more years to come. What they do for a living, and how they support themselves, are of course unknown at this time.

  35. Err, Doom, it goes without saying that the cachet of “America, where anyone can go rags -> riches” will not only continue to outlive the present reality but will continue long after, thus necessitating mucho border security (and immigration prevention) for centuries to come.

    Winston Smith sez, “Buy TSA bonds!”

  36. Patriotism is fine and doodle dandy for the rest of us. But its not why he was hired. At the end of the day Sec of Defense has to deliver the goods. He is in a position to affect policy and is charged with developing and carrying out a win strategy. If he fails then he lets the country down. McNamara failed. How he felt or what he did later doesn’t make up for it or mean shit. Many a soldier has needlessly been killed because of the faulty plans of civilian intellectual patriots. Beware the military industrial patriot complex.

  37. You know Craig and dave, the real irony here is the Edsel was actually a good car, at least better than most Ford sedans. It was a victim of the late 50s recession.

  38. Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. But you gotta give me some advance notice. It’s been a tough summer so far. I actually check ten-day weather reports. I gotta work on my tan.

    I’ll pick you up. it’s no big deal. Or we can both ride the train into town and pretend like we’re all cap&trade.

  39. Brr, I just woke up cold and closed the windows. Can’t believe this .. it’s effing 55F outside right now. And this is early July in Mazzland???

    JR, in the interests of sparing the regular readers the details of ZK’ers trying to hook up in Mazzland, maybe I should just call or email instead? Friday next week sounds good IF the weather co-operates. Then again, maybe the regular readers like that kind of stuff. Who knows?

    Good luck with the tan.

    Jimbo needs to fire whoever’s handling the appearance of his site. All of the recent variations make the original, horribly-buggy TypoKey look good in comparison.

  40. ya, i’m sure the edsel was a good car, as good as any anyway. my point was that rmc took a bad rap for that too.

    the vietnam war was a skirmish in a much larger game that is still being played out today. we might see the end game i our lifetimes. did r mc lose the skirmish? i don’t know. might want to ask the grandkids of the vietmihn who spend thier days working in nike factories. it’s just a sad fucked world in my book.

  41. “Though Errol Morris’ film served as ipso facto indictment, its title was yet a kind of justification. There is no “fog of war.” There is only hubris, stubbornness, and the psychological compartmentalization that allows a man to sign papers that will lead others to die before going home to play with his children.

    McNamara is dead. Barack Obama is his successor.” (

    This just in:

    Robert McNamara deceived LBJ on Gulf of Tonkin, documents show

  42. never let it be said that i didn’t wholeheartedly support irrational hatred in all of it’s beautiful, glorious and multifaceted manifistations. it is absolutely what makes us human.

  43. Have you ever seen the movie The Fog? Now that’s some scary shite.

    It probably escaped from McNamara’s head and went straight into Dave’s.

    Aint that a bitch?

  44. Oh, Christ, it’s only 2am. What is wrong with you, Chris, are you fucking stupid. Yes. Obviously, douche.

  45. ha ah ah ah ha ah ha, you can’t get me until you fly 5000 miles to reach me!

    Did I give you my unlisted phone number or street addee? Hummmm……no.

    Yes, if you have to Chris (you outed yourself, above) please no blood on the carpet or Mrs. Doom will go ballistic.

    Aloha nui loa,

  46. yes, you gave me your phone number. It’s OK. You have my cell. I swear to God I will kill you. If you don’t talk I won’t.

  47. No. it is not like that.

    We have always been friends. Close friends.

    I will betray that or die.

    I would rather die.

    In fact I would die.

    I would never betray that. You got me.

    You win. (Fucker)

  48. JR, does it work better if I call you? You haven’t answered any of the emails recently. Just let me know what time the casket cracks open, eh.

    Be nice to Doom. You wouldn’t want a tsunami to roll into Boston sometime just because you pissed him off, would you?

  49. nancy,

    don’t you know that the definition of sanity is the willingness to kill upon orders from your government?

  50. i don’t know how irrational hatred can be anything but human. i not even sure if hatred can ever be considered irrational. most people will hate whatever they’re told to hate, and we’ve already established this as a sure sign of sanity. witness your hatred of r mc. like he had to twist the arms of people like what’s his name, you know, palin’s running mate, to go napalm the shit outta the gooks? na, always have been plenty of people ready and willing to go kill, and there always will be. and it’s a darn good thing. you wouldn’t be here if not for that most admirable of all traits, the human propensity for violence. thank god.

  51. like wolfs hate caribou? maybe sharks hate seal pups? how far to carry the induction? don’t know. i guess that dogs can be trained to hate irrationally, but only by humans; and dogs have coevolved with humans, blahblahblah. so, no, irrational hatred(so called) is exclusively and commonly human. in fact, it’s a defining characteristic, i’d say.

  52. do wolfs and coyotes compete for resources and do they have different ideaologies? yesyesyes, it’s all clear now.

  53. nancy, where do you live? i want to do a 3some with you and your little sister. this desire is also completely rational, and i can prove it.

  54. mccain, that’s the guy’s name. now is time for craigf to call him a war criminal and nancy to praise his patriotism, or viceyvercy. not that i have anything against either stance, mind you.

  55. “wolf’s do hate coyotes and will hunt them down and kill them. is that irrational?”

    no, not at all. that’s called good competitive business sense. plus, a long time ago, some bold coyote got uppity with some wolf, he told the others about it, and it’s been downhill for wolf-coyote relations ever since.

  56. dave, true story regarding coyotes. my father and I used to hunt quail and rabbits in the upper Mojave desert. once in awhile, he would spot a coyote. then he would literally drop what he was doing, and pursue the coyote. lots of shots fired, never killed one. he would chase them into the mountains a few miles away–a sixty y. o. man.

    for me, it was like WTF? so I asked him why he did this (and got all excited about doing it, too). his rationale was we hunt rabbits and birds, coyotes hunt them also, therefore they are competition and must be eliminated. i thought he was crazy then, and i still do.

  57. Dave you’re boring me with your trite defense of McNamara. Of course we are all human, and of course some of us kill; this we all know very well. The human species has a disease. The disease has has taken root of original humanity and turned it into a sort of delirium. Part of that delirium is to sometimes become confused by it, soaked up into it, and wanting/needing to justify its very presence. Hence warfare, violence, and yes gun porn.

    Mozel tov

  58. well doom, your father may or may not have been crazy; but at least he was logically consistant.

  59. er, all i said was that r mc was an asshole like anyone else could be, even has to be, in such a position. if what you say is true, and he had a “disease”, then how can he be blamed for anything? if it was a sickness that all of humanity shares, then how can any of us be blamed for anything? maybe you’re special and you’re the only well one among us. whata turd.

  60. yeah nancy, “original humanity”(whatever) were hopping around eating eating clover like little bunnies on the forest floor. but now, due to the “disease”, they’re warlike and jerk off to gun porn. i bet that paternalism was the original sin in your bible.

  61. You have an amazing knack for misunderstanding and misconstruing, Dave. Try using your brain a little bit more. If you can’t put in the required effort then I can’t help you. I can only meet you half way. ;-)

  62. We’re essentially chemical robots governed by the simplest of reactions in the brain. Social influence really has no meaning. We are not even animals, more like self-unconscious droids fixed with skin, eyes, nose and mouth reacting to the innate procedures of the innermost mundane. Unfortunately, our operating systems were written by thugs. Humans are a virus. Yet the human virus should be championed because all that is despicable is good and all that is good is despicable in the world of the base and senseless. Hear Hear. See my dis-ease. Feel my pain. Oh the discordance of such blissful awareness, it makes my toes tingle and the puss ooze from my veins, always a sign of sincere pleasure. Or displeasure. I can’t make up my mind. I’m too busy hanging out in my local scene. Anyway, humans are an enigma, that’s for sure.


  63. please please nancy, tell me about the disease and how it infected original humanity. i can’t wait.

  64. Anyway, humans are an enigma, that’s for sure.

    no, not really. i can give you the basic instructional algorithim for most situations if you’d like.

  65. “i can give you the basic instructional algorithim for most situations if you’d like.” –dave

    O-o-o-o-o, kewl dave !!!! (Or …kewl, dave…) Absolutely… let’s have at it.

  66. What’s up with all the self loathing?

    … and lo, the proles wailed with mighty sobs.

    What original humanity? We have the biology of junk yard dogs. When have humans ever been wired different than the Mongol horde, the Khmer Rouge or the Donner party? Wish I had a dime for every McNamara the planet produced.

    Its been an impressive run (as a human I am biased also) by several measures, but this cornucopian response has been pretty short lived in biological evolution. Nature will pretty easily fill the voids left by our “enigmatic” ways. Most of the space junk will burn up on reentry. I wouldn’t get too excited.

  67. Oh don’t play dumb….or if you are going to be dumb, show some courtesy and at least try following the bouncy ball (you know the one above each line of text?).

    It’s the real indoctrinated idiots who believe “human nature” is the culmination of modern civilization up to this point. That apex is the natural evolution of the hording culture and the coercion used to perpetuate it. There is no real biological explanation as you would suggest, except that human beings took a wrong turn along the experiment of life and started really fucking things up, including each other and our environment. Some of use became more collaterally damaged than others.

    You can be contrarian and immature all you like, but I’ll still see you for what you are.

    Now let’s get back to discussing those AK47’s.


  68. As Saint Biff said, “We have the biology of junk yard dogs. When have humans ever been wired different than the Mongol horde, the Khmer Rouge or the Donner party?” …”I wouldn’t get too excited”.

    “Rot in Hell, You Fucking Piece of Shit. Two Million Vietnamese Want To Thank You.”

    “Sorry, that’s not “fucking piece of shit”, it should be more like “smarmy, self-righteous, PAINFULLY DENSE fucking piece of shit”.” -Nudge

    Oh, I understand your derision I really do, but it isn’t a matter of simple biology.

    “what don’t i understand nancy? please do tell.

    July 12, 2009 at 3:17 pm


    please please nancy, tell me about the disease and how it infected original humanity. i can’t wait.

    July 12, 2009 at 3:20 pm


    Anyway, humans are an enigma, that’s for sure.

    no, not really. i can give you the basic instructional algorithim for most situations if you’d like.”

    Dave, I hope my point has become clearer. If not I can find some links for you to read up on if you have the time.

  69. Sorry, guys, my spies say ND is NOT one of our regular regulars – and that includes MOU. Don’t ask how I know this for sure, please.

  70. “It’s the real indoctrinated idiots who believe” in ANYTHING.
    Including me (and my algorithm).

  71. Dave 12:31, encoded by a faulty algorithm and then tacked up on the refrigerator, says ” I believe in ANYTHING”.

  72. “Don’t ask how I know this for sure, please.”–Nudge. Oh silly, you’ve been corresponding with JR via email. JR is clueless about these matters. My money is on UR.

  73. “Sorry, guys, my spies say ND is NOT one of our regular regulars – and that includes MOU. Don’t ask how I know this for sure, please.”

    You could have just asked smarty pants.

  74. Nancy Drew… AK47 and wasted the joint, spending all 30 rounds in a blaze of glory.

    ..a picture of dave’s algorithm and taped it to the fridge.

    ..upon her knowledge of aquaponics and fished for a response from ZK.

    ..a short straw and had to go to Boston to meet JR/Chris/many other wonderful sock puppets. Mad master, puppeteer.

    ..a bath in preparation for anal sex with dave. Naturally she had the strap on for extra, dingy, dingus, dildo duty. As in “I wouldn’t fuck that with your dick.”

    …the curtains on her career as a crime solving sleuth. Time to grow up and become a banker, a lawyer, or a programmer for Goldman Sachs.

  75. <3<3<3

    Haha, you are a dingy, ding-batted flaming idiot. You wouldn't be worth a fuck even if you looked like a half-decent fuck with some modicum of stupid luck. When you trim that dingy afro and come back down to earth, Michael Jackson's corpse just might give you the time of day and play wiff you.

    I speak in cut-downs because that is your level, playa.

    Word has it, my ass-loving drama queen, you need to grow the fuck up and learn how to play on the playground nicely. Stop frowning on all the fun in life and quit being a condescending bitch, how's that sound? Queen putrescence.

    Word out.


  76. I think my crime solving skills are pretty good, thank you much. That’s probably why you’ve read everything I’ve ever written and were so smitten as a kitten.

    I never solved the riddle of butt slime because it always seemed to ooze from the sneakiest, least expected places. And it always had a different name assigned to it. Ho well.

  77. How to rid the bathroom of 12 year old scum. With a scouring pad or a cloth? And you know germs are always invisible. Yet even they leave clues as to the which disease or which disorder where.

  78. Dave, I hope my point has become clearer. If not I can find some links for you to read up on if you have the time.

    sure, i got nothing but time, post away. as far as point goes, you’ve made it perfectly clear that you’re just another retard posting stupid shit on the internet. welcome to the club.

  79. nancy, here’s a hint. industrial humans, are, at this point, for all intents ands purposes, the sole representatives of the human race, all 7 fucking billion of them. deal with it.

    here’s a mantra for you:

    i am an industrial product.(breath in)
    this will end soon.(breath out)

    sit with that for 6 hours a day and get back to me in a couple of years. don’t say i never did anything for you.

    your friend,


  80. common laments of of the typical retard: coulda, shoulda, woulda, ought to be, retards deserve respect too, mommy, my tummy hurts…

  81. “just another retard posting stupid shit ”
    Yes, but bow before my mighty pixellations.

  82. “but i might lick between your legs if given a chance”



    Each time you smack the gong off the gross-o-meter, relief sets in and I think, well, he’s finally reached the acme of putrid. Clearly, I have grossly underestimated your skills. %^0

  83. I sed:

    “nancy, here’s a hint. industrial humans, are, at this point, for all intents ands purposes, the sole representatives of the human race, all 7 fucking billion of them. deal with it.

    here’s a mantra for you:

    i am an industrial product.(breath in)
    this will end soon.(breath out)

    sit with that for 6 hours a day and get back to me in a couple of years. don’t say i never did anything for you.”

    Now I recand on that because I just figure d out that the world is not really so black and white and Dupont is not my sole representative! What was I thanking…

    oh wait…

    “just another retard posting stupid shit ”

    Yes, that explains it now, shit…

  84. “but i might lick between your legs if given a chance”



    Each time you smack the gong off the gross-o-meter, relief sets in and I think, well, he’s finally reached the acme of putrid. Clearly, I have grossly underestimated your skills.”

    Mooooo, where is our queen of putrescence, countess cuntessa?

  85. “common laments of of the typical retard: coulda, shoulda, woulda, ought to be, retards deserve respect too, mommy, my tummy hurts…”

    I don’t know what you are on about, but surely it has meaning for you. And after all, that’s all that counts right?

  86. “i bow before no one; but i might lick between your legs if given a chance.”

    No you wouldn’t, and, no, you wouldn’t. So just get that thought out of your head and try to make room for a little common sense, if that’s possible.

  87. “Dave” the evil toad lives on.

    Back in my day I coulda-woulda smacked him outta the park like a baseball. Do you think he is a Zonian too?

  88. Dave said: “Please buy my industrial produckts made from wastes. They may have the potential to cause side effects on your brain (so what, everything is a dice role in life, don’t be a pussy), but it is FDA approved, and it’s for a good cause”, still selling the same shit in a different package.

  89. Oh, don’t worry NAncy, Dave is just trynig to drag you down to his level. I’ve seen it before in certain circles. It’s a psy-ops way of saying I love you, I need you. In truth he probably really admires and envies you but would never admit it. Don’t take it personally.

  90. I see dave is developing a fan club on ZK. good on you, dave! I know you will win all arguments, because you are an insightful minimalist, and most other chimps, male or female, are not.

  91. Well I finally changed my WSJ subscription from home delivery over to WSJ-Online. So I got THAT going for me, which is nice.

  92. Minimalist perhaps. I would leave that to simpletons who’s sole endeavor is to “win all arguments”!

    go back to your cave bat girl.

  93. all retards think that things should be how they think they ought to be. that’s what makes you a retard.

  94. “all retards think that things should be how they think they ought to be.”

    No, that is the definition of someone who undersatnds the world around them strictly through their own filters/blinders. Individuals who have trouble assimilating the world around them period are more closely referred to as retards, retard.

  95. There are two kinds of assholes that I am thinking of. One is the straight up asshole. The other is the asshole forced to be an asshole because of the other asshole. Have funny licking asshole.

  96. Craig you’re like an articulate nomouth, and she ever reads this comment, I’m gonna get a slashing. oh well,….

  97. “cumon ee, how gross would it be if it was your legs that i was licking between?”
    Hard to say, but you’re no silken-tongued devil, that’s for sure.

  98. No, that is the definition of someone who undersatnds the world around them strictly through their own filters/blinders.

    no, you’re wrong; that’s a retard. obviously you’re only capable of using your own filters, asshole.

  99. Hard to say, but you’re no silken-tongued devil, that’s for sure.

    ever have a cat lick your pussy nancy? i’ve been told it feels real good and they have very rough tongues, and for good reason too. here’s what you do: lay down, relax, pour a little cream on your pussy. then invite kitty over for breakfast. it’ll be great for both of you. trust me, i know about these things.

    that’s 2 favors you owe me now nancy. i keep track of this shit.

  100. One problem dave, cat’s tongues go backwards, so pussy won’t like being turned over to lick the ‘right’ way.

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